# Bethak - The Desi Lounge > Freedom Castle >  The Pakistani Problem

## theonejb

Jibrans Perspective



> "Bribery isnt haram (not allowed according to Islamic rules) in Pakistan. None of the things that you have to do to survive in this country is haram. You do them because you have to, not because you want to."


What's your opinion on this blog post?

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## sikandar107

Do u think people take bribe for their survival??  I don't think so.  Bribes are generally taken by the people who has the power to carry out some work for the others and they are adequately paid their remuneration.  To me bribe is taken by the people to meet with their ever increasing greed for money and to ensure their authority through malpractices.

Not only Islam, in every religion Bribe is  Haram and not only Pakistan, in all the countries there are people who go for bribe in the name of survival.

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## Tulip

Jibrans Perspective



> "Bribery *isnt* haram (not allowed according to Islamic rules) in Pakistan. None of the things that you have to do to survive in this country is haram. You do them because you have to, not because you want to."


Who said it's not haram in Islam or in Pakistan?? It most certainly is. I would like to beat some sense into this blog poster before he quotes something confusing without any proper knowledge of it. 
It's another thing if the people are living by the rules or not.

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## sikandar107

So true Tulip !! I endorse your views.

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## theonejb

> Jibrans Perspective
> 
> 
> Who said it's not haram in Islam or in Pakistan?? It most certainly is. I would like to beat some sense into this blog poster before he quotes something confusing without any proper knowledge of it. 
> It's another thing if the people are living by the rules or not.


Thanks for that! I'm the blog poster, and if you read the entire thing, you'll see that the line you've quoted is actually the excuse someone gave for bribery. It's not an opinion, not a fatwa, nothing else than a simple quote. Please read the entire thing before bashing the hell out of me...

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## theonejb

> Do u think people take bribe for their survival??  I don't think so.  Bribes are generally taken by the people who has the power to carry out some work for the others and they are adequately paid their remuneration.  To me bribe is taken by the people to meet with their ever increasing greed for money and to ensure their authority through malpractices.
> 
> Not only Islam, in every religion Bribe is  Haram and not only Pakistan, in all the countries there are people who go for bribe in the name of survival.


That's the later stage, the greed that you talk about. How is a government employee receiving 15,000/month supposed to raise two children and keep them from dying due to starvation while paying electric and gas bills along with the ever increasing taxes coupled with the effects of inflation?

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## sikandar107

You mean to say those who are getting 15,000/- per month shud take bribe?  And who has asked that person not to think of his/her growth by enhancing his/her qualification base and professional skill?  And if he/she is not capable of doing that then he/she must accept that this Rs.15,000/- per month salary, is his/her worth and he/she must try to accommodate his/her life style accordingly.  As far as my knowledge goes, salary is getting enhanced too in line with the rise in inflation and it is never static. So I don't get any strength on this argument that one who is getting Rs.15,000/- per month salary, shud embark into taking bribe. I am sorry...To me, finding livelihood is not related to less or more salary.  Its the greed and basic character of the person, which prompt him/her to go for it.  I have found so many people with even lesser salary are leading their life conveniently and happily without indulging into any kind of corruption.

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## Tulip

> Thanks for that! I'm the blog poster, and if you read the entire thing, you'll see that the line you've quoted is actually the excuse someone gave for bribery. It's not an opinion, not a fatwa, nothing else than a simple quote. Please read the entire thing before bashing the hell out of me...


It was not well written then my friend. As I already said it gave a confused message. And of course I didn't go to your blog to read the entire post, I just read what you have quoted here.

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## Tulip

> That's the later stage, the greed that you talk about. How is a government employee receiving 15,000/month supposed to raise two children and keep them from dying due to starvation while paying electric and gas bills along with the ever increasing taxes coupled with the effects of inflation?


Does that mean he should start taking bribe? He could get a part time job or his wife or any one from the family can help him earn some more money. We are capable of doing a lot of work buddy, we better make some use of ourselves. And the first step is to cut down on the luxuries and other useless stuff we are spending all our money on. 
I know you won't understand and it's a long debate, but just make it very clear in your mind that even if we are going through tough times and even if we have little money on our hands, bribery or other wrongdoings are never the right thing to do. Not in this life neither in life after this.

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## theonejb

> It was not well written then my friend. As I already said it gave a confused message. And of course I didn't go to your blog to read the entire post, I just read what you have quoted here.


Then you're quoting out of context can't be expected to have a valid opinion.

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## Tulip

Have you made this topic so that everyone can go to your blog and read the entire post??

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## theonejb

> You mean to say those who are getting 15,000/- per month shud take bribe?  And who has asked that person not to think of his/her growth by enhancing his/her qualification base and professional skill?  And if he/she is not capable of doing that then he/she must accept that this Rs.15,000/- per month salary, is his/her worth and he/she must try to accommodate his/her life style accordingly.  As far as my knowledge goes, salary is getting enhanced too in line with the rise in inflation and it is never static. So I don't get any strength on this argument that one who is getting Rs.15,000/- per month salary, shud embark into taking bribe. I am sorry...To me, finding livelihood is not related to less or more salary.  Its the greed and basic character of the person, which prompt him/her to go for it.  I have found so many people with even lesser salary are leading their life conveniently and happily without indulging into any kind of corruption.


I'm not saying they should. I'm saying that they DO, and this is the most common excuse you hear on the road. And please tell me, how is the increase in salary proportionate to the inflation? As an example, petrol prices went from 50 something to 67 as of right now. Do you know of any government employee getting a raise proportionate to that?

And petrol is just an example, take anything, sugar, meat, vegetables, anything...

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## sikandar107

Yeah I agree.  But thats not only for Govt. employees.  But atleast some portion is being compensated.  And inflation does get balanced too at times. It always fluctuates.  There is considerable rise in salary pattern too.  I bet some 10 years back, the income per capita was much below than we have in our countries.  And yes I agree with Tulip, this is a big debate and cannot be sorted by small posts here.  But Bribery is certainly *not* the solution to combate price hike to live for survival.

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## theonejb

> Have you made this topic so that everyone can go to your blog and read the entire post??


I made it because I have an opinion that I thought should be shared. What would I get by making people read my blog? MONEY, FAME, POWER? or maybe I'm missing something?

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## theonejb

> Yeah I agree.  But thats not only for Govt. employees.  But atleast some portion is being compensated.  And inflation does get balanced too at times. It always fluctuates.  There is considerable rise in salary pattern too.  I bet some 10 years back, the income per capita was much below than we have in our countries.  And yes I agree with Tulip, this is a big debate and cannot be sorted by small posts here.  But Bribery is certainly *not* the solution to combate price hike to live for survival.


Valid points, but I'm wondering, when did this turn into a debate about bribery? That wasn't the original purpose. My aim was to describe the thinking of a Pakistani as I see it. I never condoned bribery, I never justified it. And yet, I seem to feel that is what we are discussing here.

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## theonejb

> Does that mean he should start taking bribe? He could get a part time job or his wife or any one from the family can help him earn some more money. We are capable of doing a lot of work buddy, we better make some use of ourselves. And the first step is to cut down on the luxuries and other useless stuff we are spending all our money on. 
> I know you won't understand and it's a long debate, but just make it very clear in your mind that even if we are going through tough times and even if we have little money on our hands, bribery or other wrongdoings are never the right thing to do. Not in this life neither in life after this.


Sure, he can work from 8AM-8PM for the police, then, after standing for 12 hours straight in the middle of the road, directing traffic in the blazing sun, he can go and find some part time job. And he can ask his two 6/10 year old children to go to work. Or his wife that takes care of his children the whole day. And when the children ask: "why do we have to work when our friends are going to school", he can say: "because we are capable of doing a lot of work"?

And ofcourse, how can we forget the relatives? He could ask them for help. Relatives who are just waiting for the chance to show him his 'aukat' would definitely be ready to help him!

But all that is besides the point. You started this debate of bribery from a quote. Here's another one:



> Hazrat Muhammad (P.B.U.H):
> 
> Whoever among you sees an evil action, then let him change it with his hand [by taking action]; if he cannot, then with his tongue [by speaking out]; and if he cannot, then with his heart  and that is the weakest of faith.


That is what my blog post was about discussing. You seem to think I did this so that everyone can read my blog. You seriously want me to copy a two page long post to here?

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## sikandar107

My dear friend - its not only a Pakistani, it is all the persons who ar indulged in bribery, will think at the same level and they will all have one  reason or other to justify their acts.  Isn't it?  Certainly Bribery is not proprietary to only Pakistani people.  It exists everywhere.  Do you think people in other countries are just saint?  I think people in US are well off and have much better purchasing capacity through right means,than an average Indian or Pakistani has?  But can u rule out the curse of bribery there?  So I reiterate its nothing to do with survival.  It is basically driven by the greed or we may call it unhealthy competition, which never stops once gets started.  :Smile:

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## theonejb

> My dear friend - its not only a Pakistani, it is all the persons who ar indulged in bribery, will think at the same level and they will all have one  reason or other to justify their acts.  Isn't it?  Certainly Bribery is not proprietary to only Pakistani people.  It exists everywhere.  Do you think people in other countries are just saint?  I think people in US are well off and have much better purchasing capacity through right means,than an average Indian or Pakistani has?  But can u rule out the curse of bribery there?  So I reiterate its nothing to do with survival.  It is basically driven by the greed or we may call it unhealthy competition, which never stops once gets started.


And once again, I AGREE with you. I have never justified bribery! I have never condoned it! I didn't even start discussing it! 

For some reason, you seem to think that I'm somehow trying to justify bribery! That's not what I wanted to discuss here.

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## sikandar107

> And once again, I AGREE with you. I have never justified bribery! I have never condoned it! I didn't even start discussing it! 
> 
> For some reason, you seem to think that I'm somehow trying to justify bribery! That's not what I wanted to discuss here.


Thanks for AGREEING my point !!  If you kindly care to go through your posts, it would sound as if you were trying to justify Bribery.  Anyways I am sorry to have taken it wrong.  Now will u please come out as to what you indeed wanted to discuss other than what I inadvertently took?  :Smile:

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## theonejb

> Thanks for AGREEING my point !!  If you kindly care to go through your posts, it would sound as if you were trying to justify Bribery.  Anyways I am sorry to have taken it wrong.  Now will u please come out as to what you indeed wanted to discuss other than what I inadvertently took?


Thanks! My original purpose was to get an opinion on this:



> So anyways, I was trying to make the point that you should not give in to the demands of the police man. And I was shut up quite nicely when asked what I would do if a police man stopped me on the road and demanded money from me to let me go. Either give him the money or go to jail. The perfect example of being between a rock and a hard place! And then my friend said something that I think describes the Pakistani mentality perfectly.
> 
> Bribery isnt haram (not allowed according to Islamic rules) in Pakistan. None of the things that you have to do to survive in this country is haram. You do them because you have to, not because you want to.

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## Tulip

*Theonejb*: Agar aap apni bat khol kay aagay rakh hi nai rahe tou how do you expect to get the right answers and right opinions from us at the first place! And other than that be a little calmer, it's alright to discuss certain issues or difference of the opinions, no one needs to get hyper or defensive about it =) 
I'll reply in detail later.

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## theonejb

@tulip: My last post may have seemed a bit defensive or even angry, and for that I'm sorry. 

I'll be waiting to hear from you again.  :Smile:

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