# Bethak - The Desi Lounge > Freedom Castle >  Hindu racism in India

## Endurer

Manusrumiti says:




> As the son of Shudra can attain the rank of a Brahmin, the son of Brahmin can attain rank of a shudra. Even so with him who is born of a Vaishya or a Kshatriya


*More Facts:*




> The caste system is perhaps the most elaborate expression of institutionalized oppression ever built by human beings. Caste oppression is so similar to racial oppression that the Dalits, the people once referred to as untouchables, by the supremacist arrogance of Brahmins (the priestly caste), are demanding that the UN Conference against Racism also include a discussion of Hindu racism. This of course draws outraged responses from the arrogant upper caste leadership of the neo-Brahminial Hindutva movement. This movement is striking terror on Indias Muslims, and Christians and is not interested in any form of democratic society, but on that is built on Hindu supremacist ideas. Hindu racism is so encoded within the so-called Hindu dharma (law) that most Hindus tend to feel outraged even though they know that the practices and ideologies of caste and race intertwine and overlap like strands of the same fiber. More than 300 million (yes 300 million!) human beings in India live lives as bonded laborers. This is modern day slavery. A vast majority of them are Dalits and people of the lowest castes in the caste hierarchy. For them life under Hindu dharma is one of always serving Brahmins and upper castes, and doing the most menial tasks in society, a degrading condition justified in Hinduism as one appropriate to their caste! There is no economic, political or cultural emancipation for these oppressed millions under the regime of Hindu dharma, and with the rise of the Hindu fascist movement represented by the BJP government, they along with hundreds of millions of Muslims and Christians are being targeted and attacked.


Dsjeya? anyone? I hope some of my hindu friends can explain it to me.

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## AaDi

I cant believe being so 'modern' yet ppl can believe in all this. I think Indian Government should BAN all this cast system .. just because someone is born in a small family doesn't mean they dont have a right to live a better life style .. I really want to read *Dsjeya* views on 'equality' .. he has being goin on about equality of man and woman .. letz see how he reacts to equality in 'human beings'

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## dsjeya

india is a secular democratic country,our constitution guarantees  equal rights to all indian citizens irrespective of cast,gender,r religion
yet untouchability is practiced in rural areas,but it is treated as a criminal offence
we had dalit president Mr.Narayanan,Chief minister Mayavathi
like in rural Pakistan where honor killing is permissible and woman can be given as compensation for any crime some rural areas the malice untouchablity does exsist.
Friend endurer u have given exaggerated figures
muslims and christians are safe and happy in india
may be some fanatics are there in all religions
do you know if a white says somebody is a pak it is racially insulting

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## dsjeya

where r u my friends endurer and useless
don't throw stones living in a glass house

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## Endurer

> india is a secular democratic country,our constitution guarantees equal rights to all indian citizens irrespective of cast,gender,r religion
> yet untouchability is practiced in rural areas,but it is treated as a criminal offence
> we had dalit president Mr.Narayanan,Chief minister Mayavathi


Oh yes yes we have all heard of that  :Big Grin:  It's lame actually and here's some food for thought:

*India: Gujarat Officials Took Part in Anti-Muslim Violence*

State officials of Gujarat, India were directly involved in the killings of hundreds of Muslims since February 27 and are now engineering a massive cover-up of the state's role in the violence, Human Rights Watch charged in a new report released today.

The police were directly implicated in nearly all the attacks against Muslims that are documented in the 75-page report, 'We Have No Orders to Save You': State Participation and Complicity in Communal Violence in Gujarat. In some cases they were merely passive observers. But in many instances, police officials led the charge of murderous mobs, aiming and firing at Muslims who got in the way.

*Human Rights Watch* also alleges that that the trucks carried quantities of gas cylinders. Rich homes of people belonging to the *Muslim community* and business establishments *were first systematically looted*, stripped down of all their valuables, then *cooking gas was released* from cylinders into the buildings for several minutes.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2002/04/30/india3885.htm

^ And if you look closely, that's human rights watch.

Dsjeya, is this your so-called secular country? I find it extremely disturbing my friend.




> like in rural Pakistan where honor killing is permissible and woman can be given as compensation for any crime some rural areas the malice untouchablity does exsist.
> Friend endurer u have given exaggerated figures
> muslims and christians are safe and happy in india
> may be some fanatics are there in all religions
> do you know if a white says somebody is a pak it is racially insulting


Blame game? you can do that better than that my friend. Clean your own little backyard before taking it out at. Oh and by the way, keep those issues to their related topics. I am sure we have those available in discussions and debate.

Muslims and christians are safe in India? Now you need to be corrected. Here's Amnesty international's report:

it. In the subsequent large-scale violence against* Muslims, girls and women were particular targets of Hindu mobs*. By systematically and *brutally abusing Muslim girls and women*, they intended to humiliate and pollute the whole Muslim community. *Several hundred girls and women were verbally abused, threatened, publicly stripped naked, raped, often gang-raped, had swords thrust into their bodies and were thrown onto fires while often still alive. Pregnant women and children were particular targets.*

Amnesty International believes that in relation to the violence in Gujarat in 2002, *India has not fulfilled its obligations to protect fundamental rights guaranteed in its constitution and in international treaties to which is a party.*

*Let down by the law*
*
*Women seeking legal redress for crimes of sexual violence have been hampered by the inadequacy of relevant legal provisions in the Indian Penal Code. The law relating to rape fails to deal with the many forms of violent sexual assault experienced by girls and women in Gujarat as it only refers to penal penetration. Other forms of assault which do not amount to rape are defined as acts "outraging a womans modesty", a notion which is ill-defined and fails to reflect the range and nature of such violence which constitutes an invasion of a womans person and threatens their bodily integrity.

*http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engasa200022005*

And they are safe? Shame on you.

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## Endurer

The leg brace of a handicapped male victim buried at a mass gravesite in Ahmedabad. Gravediggers told Human Rights Watch that most bodies they buried were burned and butchered beyond recognition. Many were missing body parts -arms, legs, and even heads. Pregnant women, whose bellies were cut open before they were killed, were buried with their fetuses hanging outside their bodies. © 2002 Smita Narula/Human Rights Watch

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## Endurer

*The Dalits: India's Untouchables*

Indias Dalits are 1/4 of the total population of India; a staggering 250 million men, women, and children. Dalits are the outcastes of Indian society  the untouchables  those called the unborn, for it would be better for them if they had never been born.

The Dalits are the poorest of the worlds poor; they are stripped of their basic humanity, are denied basic human rights, and are entrenched in a system that gives them no freedom. Dalits are denied access to public wells and public parks. Many restaurants use separate drinking glasses for Dalits.

http://www.dalitnetwork.org/go?/dfn/about/C4/

*Horror in India: harvesting childrens organs*

Alleged organ trafficking and sexual abuse of children: All Christian Council demands investigation and regulation of child-care agencies. Dalits, Indias untouchables were targeted.

Organ trafficking or sexual abuse may account for the disappearance of 38 children from Nithari village near Noida, 25km from Delhi, in Uttar Pradesh. Remains of 17 of them were found at the beginning of the year. The owner of the house where the victims were buried, Moninder Singh, and his domestic, Surender, were arrested and have confessed but this has not stopped the tragedy from taking on strong political overtones.

http://www.dalitnetwork.org/go?/dfn/...ildrens_organs

*Lack of medical help:*

Dalits are often unable to receive proper medical care due to insufficient finances, caste discrimination

Because Indias Dalits have little access to medical care, their children receive no vaccinations, and preventable infectious diseases like Tuberculosis, Malaria and Hepatitis spread rapidly.

*Knowledge Commission fails to deliver*

But the moot question is: Who are these Commission members to advise the government about the constitutional rights of vast masses of people? Why are they silent about the fact that all Central universities, IITs, IIMs, medical schools and Navodaya schools are run in English medium even though the Centre has declared Hindi as the national language?

The Knowledge Commission is not worried about this, since English ensures that the upper classes get easy access to the globalised markets. We have never heard the Knowledge Commission say all children should be given equal access to English medium education.

But whenever emerges an issue pertaining to the welfare of the Dalit-Bahujan masses, some intellectuals in Delhi and the Central institutes jump into the discourse with the theory that caste-based mechanism does not do any good for the nation. They warn that such government agendas will divide society on the basis of caste. Dont they know that Indian society has been divided on the basis of caste for centuries? Do they have any ideological formula for the abolition of caste?

http://www.dalitnetwork.org/go?/dfn/...ils_to_deliver

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## bacteria

this world is one f**ked up place  :Smile:

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## Endurer

*Anti-Christian Violence on the Rise in India*

Attacks against Christians throughout the country have increased significantly since the BJP began its rule at the center in March 1998. *They include the killings of priests, the raping of nuns, and the physical destruction of Christian institutions, schools, churches, colleges, and cemeteries.* Thousands of *Christians have also been forced to convert to Hinduism*. The report concludes that as with attacks against Muslims in 1992 and 1993, attacks against Christians are part of a concerted campaign of right-wing Hindu organizations, collectively called the sangh parivar, to promote and exploit communal clashes to increase their political power-base. The movement is supported at the local level by *hindu militant groups* who operate with impunity.

In January 1999, *Australian missionary Graham Staines* *and his two sons were trapped in their car and burned alive in the state of Orissa, reportedly by Dara Singh, a local leader of the extremist group Bajrang Dal.* On the eve of India's national parliamentary elections in September and October 1999, the situation for minorities in the state deteriorated significantly.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/1999/09/30/india1626.htm

*An act of violence against Christians every third day*

India continues to be an unsafe place for its tiny Christian minority. A mere 2.3 per cent of its 1.20 Billion population, and concentrated in eight of its 30 States, the Christian community averaged a crime against them every third day during 2006 - a total of 128 cases reported in the national or international media in the year. The figure may actually be much more. 

Much of the reporting gathered here was on the Internet websites of Christian groups. Mainstream press continues to ignore acts of violence against minority communities in general, and the Christians in particular. 
This list is of the more vicious crimes we report, leaving aside the repeated assaults on the road: the jibes, taunts and sexual harassment which takes place while the police look away, or worse, look on. Church workers, Nuns, Priests, Pastors and Evangelists, health workers and development NGOs often do not even report acts of violence unless there is grave injury. This list also does not include the hundreds of cases of official harassment of schools, colleges, hospitals, churches, mission stations and house churches in most Indian states. 

Much of the violence is in inaccessible areas of Madhya Pradesh, which tops the scale, Andhra Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, and Orissa and so on, where it is almost impossible to persuade the police to take action before ht culprits vanish into the night. In Madhya Pradesh and Rajasthan, particularly, the police have often enough accompanied the attackers and the refused to record formal complaints. 

These attacks are often perpetrated by followers of the *Hindu fascist ideology called Hinduthva* and are *often organized by members of the VHP and RSS, two prominent Hindu fascist organizations*. 

http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/2007/s07010135.htm

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## dsjeya

friend endurer 
india has problems,i don't deny,but we are a democracy,have free press,and independent judiciary 
consider the huge population some stray incidents do happen
dalits,christians and muslim all have votes
every five years politicians have to approach them with all humility
Gujarat is an aberration
what about amnesty internationals reports about human rights abuses in Pakistan
we have not hanged our former primeminister in mock trial
we have not suffered single army coup
Pakistan has a long way to go politicaly

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## manni9

@dsjeya: Pakistan do have problems but we never say that our country is a Political heaven.In India Muslims have almost no rights as long as they re not "libreal".
@Adeel: Bro racism tou pakistan main bhi kum nahi hea,farkh ittna hea ke hamareyahaan race ki wajah say jaan say nahi maarte.

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## dsjeya

manni9
muslims are equal citizens of india enjoying every right 
while other children are going to English medium schools 
muslims send their children to madarasa
they don't allow there womanfolk to study and work
may you highlight the status of hindus in pakistan
the thread is for india bashing
for every action there will be an equal and opposite reaction

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## manni9

> manni9
> muslims are equal citizens of india enjoying every right 
> while other children are going to English medium schools 
> muslims send their children to madarasa
> they don't allow there womanfolk to study and work
> may you highlight the status of hindus in pakistan
> the thread is for india bashing
> for every action there will be an equal and opposite reaction


no dear it's not like this no one is trying to "BASH" Hindustan.
Well In India only those Muslims can live a sucessful life who re Liberal.You will never see a Mullah President on the other hand Pandits don't have anykind of problem in india. Tolerance means you should accept every one.
I have never heard anything like, hindu folk getting any kind of problems because of their religon.
Although they re less than 0.5% still they have equal rights.

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## dsjeya

Manni friend
what is wrong being a liberal muslim
in India ramzan,bakrid,miladinabi and moharam are govt holidays
do u have holidays for hindu festivals ?

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## manni9

> Manni friend
> what is wrong being a liberal muslim
> in India ramzan,bakrid,miladinabi and moharam are govt holidays
> do u have holidays for hindu festivals ?


We don't have enough hindus.
Problem is that dude Islam it's self is a liberal religon,we don't have any cast system( Although some stupids belive in it but it have nothing to do with islam) and according to our religon,if we live a more liberal life than Islam,then it's wrong.
U did'nt answer me,can a Mullah become a president in india?

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## dsjeya

why not if elected mullah can become president of india
we have holidays for Gurunanak birthday and Mahavir Jeyanthy though they
are minority
President Mushraf is considered a liberal muslim
mullahs are angry with him

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## manni9

but no one will elect a mullah,cauz they re very conservative  :Wink: 
Hindus are 0.2% in Pakiland if they have dewallis n stuff, they re allowd to celeberate,but we don't celeberate with them

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## mspinthakis

don't be silly...
Dr Abdul Kalam himself is a muslim...
And should i tell you something?Meri patni Bhaarat mahan se hai,i am a christian but we both attend Hindu pujas because we feel better persons...
Fanatism is very bad yaar...

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## manni9

Dr Abdul Kalam is not a Mullah his name is Islamic...

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## mspinthakis

still this shows that India accepts people from other religions..Believe me,things are much worse in other places...

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## manni9

no man sorry but it really don't show every thing.
I always have to repeat Kashmir and Gujrat issues,whats happening there with Muslims.
Or what happend with Sikhs,y do they wannt to make Khalistan??

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## mspinthakis

i know what you mean and i am telling you that social problems exist everywhere.Things are much worse in other places...

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## marco raval

> friend endurer 
> india has problems,i don't deny,but we are a democracy,have free press,and independent judiciary 
> consider the huge population some stray incidents do happen
> dalits,christians and muslim all have votes
> every five years politicians have to approach them with all humility
> Gujarat is an aberration
> what about amnesty internationals reports about human rights abuses in Pakistan
> we have not hanged our former primeminister in mock trial
> we have not suffered single army coup
> Pakistan has a long way to go politicaly


i dont think democracy is having polls one thing,it is social behaviour, in that case india regularly holds election it is just that anything more of that i dont believe like the rights of kashmiris whole the world know and indians knows themselves that kashmiris dont think themselves indians and india is forcibly attaching it with him i am sorry this is not democracy, the other point of social behaviour pakistan has secured one sucess get rid of any signs of cast system now society is many time more egaliterian than may be of india i suppose, for example inter regional and inter cast marriages is a common thing that is clearly not the case of india for that reason pakistani society is more democratic than india,as for polling side of democracy let me say it is constitutional crisis, i will explain constitution stems from social contract of people and goes upward at state level as has happened in european countries but except for two of three asian countries situation is upside down mean colonial powers enforced a constitutional formula and ex-colonies adopted it with a little change like india and pakistan may be but pakistan is in the process of finding its own social contract thats why scenario is seemingle chaotic but remember this chaos is of movement, not stand still like indian scenario,from foreign policy to internal social fermantation it represents no profit no gain policy.

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## marco raval

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## VS Prasad

Ancient Europeans wrote about Ages of Man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man

There are also many other references to various
types of world ages or Ages of Man in Hopi
(worlds), Mayan (suns) and other cultures of
antiquity. Giorgio de Santillana, the former
professor of the history of science, mentions
approximately thirty ancient cultures that
believed in the concept of a series of ages and
the rise and fall of history, with alternating
Dark and Golden Ages.

More details of these Ages are available in the
Yuga concept of the Hindus. The present age
is known as Kali Yuga (age of darkness).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satya_Yuga

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/iml/iml11.htm

http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/AgesOfWorld.html

Selfishness and evil are the characteristic feature of the present Age.

It is a testing time for all souls. Can you pass those tests and become dearer to Paramatma?

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## premeet01245

according to me u r right but we have to with each other.

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## sikandar107

My Dear Friend Endurer.... I have gone through your thread today.  I don't claim that I am efficient enough to totally rule out whatever you have mentioned.  But at the same time I would say there are a large number of section in the Indian society who are very much secular and open minded as far as secularism is concerned.  I appreciate your thinkings.  There are fundamentalist in Indian society as there are everywhere in this world.  But I am afraim this cannot be generalised. Take my case.  I am Brahmin.  My ancestors were Hard Core Brahmins in Uttar Pradesh.  But I was born in a Mohalla full with Muslim community.  And I  was brought up under the shadow of a Muslim Lady who is so reverred and adorable to me.  She was my Badi Amma.  I still observe one day of Ramzaan and visit all my muslim friends during Eid and so do they during our festivals.  I am not going claim that I am living in a country which is heaven.  And I am not going draw example or cue from what is being done in Pakistan.  No... Not at all.  And there are majority of people in India who denounce this kind of fundamentalism.

And now I come about Racisim.  Yes there were existing and do exists too now at a lower dimension.  Things have changed in India.  Now the down trodden community who were forced to serve the Brahmins or upper casts on the basis of religions and race, have come up with better education facilities and I am glad to see that so many of them have been able to acquire much higher offices on their own right like Civil Services, Medicos, Indian Police Services and so on.  It will take time to fully eradicate this evil from a country as large as India.  But I am sure day will come when our next generation will see that these black mark from the face Indian Society will be wiped off for ever.  Ameen !!  :Smile:

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## sikandar107

Endurer Brother... I always write my posts ex tempor so there might be some typographical error which I hope you would kindly ignore.  Nevertheless its a topic worth discussing if its raised without any prejudice and bias towards a particular religion, race, community or a country. And knowing you pretty well, this thread has been raised to a hold a healthy deliberation to arrive at an amicable understanding.  :Smile:

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## heman

i would have loved to throw light here as i am a Hindu but i dont want to invite wrath  from endurer again if i speak the truth  as truth is hard to digest here;so no comments

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## Endurer

> My Dear Friend Endurer.... I have gone through your thread today.  I don't claim that I am efficient enough to totally rule out whatever you have mentioned.  But at the same time I would say there are a large number of section in the Indian society who are very much secular and open minded as far as secularism is concerned.  I appreciate your thinkings.  There are fundamentalist in Indian society as there are everywhere in this world.  But I am afraim this cannot be generalised. Take my case.  I am Brahmin.  My ancestors were Hard Core Brahmins in Uttar Pradesh.  But I was born in a Mohalla full with Muslim community.  And I  was brought up under the shadow of a Muslim Lady who is so reverred and adorable to me.  She was my Badi Amma.  I still observe one day of Ramzaan and visit all my muslim friends during Eid and so do they during our festivals.  I am not going claim that I am living in a country which is heaven.  And I am not going draw example or cue from what is being done in Pakistan.  No... Not at all.  And there are majority of people in India who denounce this kind of fundamentalism.
> 
> And now I come about Racisim.  Yes there were existing and do exists too now at a lower dimension.  Things have changed in India.  Now the down trodden community who were forced to serve the Brahmins or upper casts on the basis of religions and race, have come up with better education facilities and I am glad to see that so many of them have been able to acquire much higher offices on their own right like Civil Services, Medicos, Indian Police Services and so on.  It will take time to fully eradicate this evil from a country as large as India.  But I am sure day will come when our next generation will see that these black mark from the face Indian Society will be wiped off for ever.  Ameen !!



Sikander, this thread wasn't directed towards the entire Hindu population of India -- despite the fact that there were dozens of thread started by one of our valued members accusing the entire population of Pakistan of being terrorists, wife beaters, acid attackers e.t.c. During those days, some of the news media were covering these issues in India so I thought to bring it up here. No matter what side are these issues on, I have always *raised them* here to challenge sympathizers on *both sides* of the border.

Ameen to your post, I wish for more people like you on both sides of the border.

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## heman

please endurer dont start this topic again as i want to bury the past and start afresh

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## seeder

If caste is not related to religion , then someone Hindu could become a priest.ï»¿ But only the Brahmins can become priest. So caste is related to religion. & still people think in pollution & pure based on birth, through caste.

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## seeder

The caste method is perhaps the most elaborate expression of institutionalized oppression ever built by human beings. Caste oppression is so similar to racial oppression that the Dalits, the people one time often called ntouchables, by the supremacist vanity of Brahmins.

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